Template talk:Problems/GC Widescreen Auto

Being A Banner
I don't feel good with this template becoming into a banner. I'm sorry, I didn't tell about this in another discussion page. It's not going to flow with the article well in the game pages. I want this to be similar to template:GlobalProblems/NES. Lucario (talk) 11:15, 5 November 2015 (CET)
 * This banner is awful, if we're really going to add that kind of info in the game pages, a new section (like "Emulation Info" or whatever else name we choose, as discussed in Talk:F-Zero GX) is thousands of times better than a template with this ugly banner. - Jhonn (talk)
 * To be honest, edits were already starting to go into effect, like Star Fox Adventures and F-Zero GX, before anything was finalized, ready to be deployed, and how it should be deployed. --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) 19:46, 5 November 2015 (CET)
 * I will put them into sandbox for the time being, if that's OK with you. Lucario (talk) 00:16, 7 November 2015 (CET)
 * I undid your edits because the plan I have for this isn't going to go as a subsection in the main article but rather the Template:Infobox VG to make it more noticeable, kind of following the SaveGame Manager GX example (Template_talk:RatingProblemFix for details). For sandboxing right now, Template:Infobox VG sandbox. See F-Zero GX/sandbox, Super Smash Bros. Brawl/sandbox, or Schlag den Raab/sandbox for what the revised infobox looks like. --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) 00:31, 7 November 2015 (CET)
 * They're still sandbox and there is sandbox of this template available for you to continue experiment with. No one else agrees that it should go anywhere other than into the new section we've discussed in F-Zero's discussion page. It's best not to start the edit war here. What was your end goal with your edits? To get users attention about the false issues they've been experimenting with? There is another discussion regarding bringing the new section up above the problem section, that'd get more attention from the user either way. It will make the banner thing redundant and will only make the game pages inconsistency and break the flow of the article, be it on top of the game page or into the infobox. Lucario (talk) 01:14, 7 November 2015 (CET)

Not a Banner but Should be Something Better
The current form this template is taking just breaks consistency and will cause breaks if one misinformed editor edits on one page because it will affect all other pages that use the template as well! Seems like the template was created haphazardly as a Band-Aid approach to fix a symptom of a bigger underlying problem and not the problem itself. Suddenly orders are passed without understanding what kind of damage the template can do and no standardizing. I was aiming to fix consistency overall while still maintaining flow of the article so that way there is a logical data structure. I have created Template:WidescreenGCNTag to further my experimentations. --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) 11:03, 8 November 2015 (CET)
 * Wait, what? The current form is WAAAAAAY better than anything else you have brought, it does provide consistency (since all GC games with native 16:9 support will have the same section title and text and as bonus categorize the page automatically without additional user input), doesn't put an ugly ad-like banner at top of the page neither in the infobox and fits perfectly well in the new Emulation Info section. - Jhonn (talk)
 * OK, using  in a template is just asking for breaks. Pages already use   and should remain that way to remain consistent. Emulation information on F-Zero GX is ugly and pushes problems down the list, which problems are more vital than emulation information.
 * I get that banners may be ugly where they are located but at least the information is where it should go because an infobox is about game information and features as 16:9 is a feature while the power-sliding glitch and custom cars glitch are not features. --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) 21:01, 8 November 2015 (CET)
 * I'm not clear what you mean regarding the heading levels.
 * We at one point had thought about including details such as ISO size, aspect ratio support, audio ucode, etc. in the info boxes, but in general felt it would be too difficult to assign appropriately across all titles. Doing so would not just mean labeling these 60 GC games, but also assessing 4:3/16:9 support across all the Wii games. At this time no one is willing to put in the effort to do so. To really do things properly we'd also need to assess the state of the Widescreen hack across games, which actually raises an issue here. There are similar sections for games that break with the Widescreen hack but have AR codes that provide better support. Should those continue to be maintained in the "Patches" sections, or should they be revised to fit into the new "Emulation Info" ones. Kolano (talk) 01:24, 9 November 2015 (CET)
 * Heading levels are for main articles only. You can template this markup, but it is very frowned upon just by any other person/group that uses the MediaWiki software. It's one of those cases just because you can doesn't mean you should.
 * Maybe the infobox needs an overhaul in design to have information relevant to Dolphin instead of just general stuff, which you could find on Wikipedia (you even provide a link to the Wikipedia page). A lot of the current elements, such as publisher, controller support, etc., is something that should be in emulation information. You are welcome to try overhauling this in Template:Infobox VG sandbox. As for widescreen hack and AR codes, this is where  shines (Category:Games with outdated information)! All Wii games are 4:3 and 16:9 compliant with Nintendo's specifications. GCN games, only ~60 titles natively from what I learned. How many GCN games exist? --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) 01:40, 9 November 2015 (CET)
 * Please don't start mucking with the infobox too, you will just increase aggravation over your edits. Take some time for discussion, and gain some consensus of which you currently have none before wasting your time.
 * We track 715 GC titles.
 * Just because, "All Wii games are 4:3 and 16:9 compliant with Nintendo's specifications", does not mean that they all support both 4:3 and 16:9, a number of games only support 4:3, outputting to 16:9 displays with horizontal black bars. Similarly many titles may only really support 16:9 output using vertical black bars to get that AR on 4:3 displays. Kolano (talk) 02:18, 9 November 2015 (CET)
 * That is why I sandboxed the current infobox code. That is also why I am starting a discussion first over at Template:Infobox VG sandbox before anything.
 * 60/715 games. A flag for those GCN games only will suffice for marking native only in the infobox. One flag will make maintenance keeping that parameter of the infobox easy. Widescreen hacks and AR codes are for those 4:3 only GCN titles.
 * What I meant is that the Wii makes it easy because it can handle the case automatically so you don't have to fiddle around with your TV, which is what you have to do with GCNs and Wii's GCN mode. --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) 04:24, 9 November 2015 (CET)

Seeing how the experimental category was removed, I thought I explained myself how this template in its current form can break several things all at once. --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) 22:09, 17 November 2015 (CET)


 * No, I'm still not at all clear as to how the current template can break anything.
 * These templates are intended to cover common problems between games, so updates to it should appear across all applicable titles. We may need to watch for people inserting game specific details into it, but don't think that will happen frequently.
 * Headings should be common between these sorts of problems, so the heading is included in the template to ensure that. It will just be additional maintenance to move it outside of the template, and I'm unclear what benefit that would provide. This text will never appear at a different heading level (I guess I should never say never, but it's highly unlikely, and if it did occur all instances of the template would all likely need to be moved together).
 * Though I don't think it applies much to this specific problem, unless folks want to add more specific details of enabling 16:9 in game, there may be shared problems that do need to allow for the insertion of game specific details. I presume when that comes up the game specific text can just be added after the related template, or in some rarer cases inserted via template parameters.
 * Kolano (talk) 23:05, 17 November 2015 (CET)


 * The problem is the use of headings in a template. You may not see it now but it can break Wikis if you use them. Trust me. I have experience with other Wikis. Sure, nothing is preventing you from doing so, but it's just asking for trouble and is generally frowned upon. Treat templates as you would C++ functions: If you change one thing in the function, everything else can break. I'm sure you have run into those kind of problems before messing with the C++ code. Also, I find this template a Band-Aid to a larger underlying problem that I hope to fix in the highly experimental Template:Infobox VG sandbox. Ultimately, I see this template, Template:WidescreenGCNTag, and Template:DualLayerWiiDiscs being merged into the new infobox template. Not in the near future and in its current form, but I think it will happen. --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) 23:33, 17 November 2015 (CET)


 * The problem this addresses is that there is shared problem text between multiple wiki pages. That's the case for a number of things. I would not put much faith that this sort of info will migrate to the infobox, even if the infobox is revised, and the other similar problem text definitely won't be addressed by that. You have still failed to explain as to how including the heading in the template can "break" anything. Don't just say to trust you (it's that sort of commentary that has really been irking the various admins here), state specifically what the problem with doing so is. Kolano (talk) 00:01, 18 November 2015 (CET)
 * Click edit next to the 16:9 header on any page. Should I show you by editing and then looking at a few of the pages this template is embedded? I won't do it unless you say it is OK. --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) 00:27, 18 November 2015 (CET)


 * There's nothing on this template that is "asking for breaks". It provides a consistent text for all applicable game pages and at least here (when looking into F-Zero GX) there's no "edit" next to the 16:9 heading added by the template, and even if there was, what is the problem here? An user adding unnecessary info in the template? A simple revert would fix that and simply protecting the template would prevent any further occurrence as well. And again, I don't care about what experience you have with whichever wiki you've worked, if you think there's a problem, show us a concrete example from our wiki exhibiting the problem, saying that something is wrong and that we need to trust you is just asking me to ignore whatever point you may have. - Jhonn (talk)


 * I remember the template having an edit option right from the page that calls it a short time ago. Anyways, I don't know what else to tell you. It's unconventional by Wiki standards in general, could make that boundary to edit Dolphin Wiki even harder for newcomers, and no other template you have created does this. I see a Band-Aid approach to fixing a problem here. From what I understand from various bug report threads, the idea is to stop Band-Aid or quick approaches to fix problems of the Dolphin executable and try to implement a proper, hopefully permanent, and clean fix. This was made apparent to me with a bug report relating to the flickering coming back to Sonic Mega Collection and a recent feature request that tells of a more underlying problem with the user-friendliness . For consistency sake, I would hope that the Wiki follows this too. --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) 02:30, 18 November 2015 (CET)


 * You didn't see an Edit button here at least while the templates been implemented, and I'm unclear you would have elsewhere. I'm fairly sure the edit buttons are inserted into the page before templates are processed. Though I guess who knows what wiki software variations are out there. You've been vaguely fuming at people about how this this terribly breaks things for over a week now, and in that time, if that was your real concern, never realized it was not even applicable here. Sigh.
 * These sorts of templates can also help standardize text used around issues that effect numerous titles, which over time has been a good number of them. If you paid attention to notes in Revision History you might also know I was able to find 2-3 other shared problems that should get this sort of treatment. That was just across a review of a few pages, so there's likely numerous others. We are unlikely to wedge details for any of these into the infobox, so that's plainly not the solution here. Sigh.
 * This template may make it slightly harder to edit these particular problems, but such also saves a lot of maintenance work. Without the template any time a random editor updates one of these pages someone would need to deploy revisions over all the other pages, since random editors are unlikely to know the issue exists elsewhere. Since we were frequently lax in doing so, every page's similar issue would slowly deviate from each other, creating a mess over time. Consistency is valued here, I'm not clear how anything you've raised aids such. I should really just shut up there, as I have no interest in reviewing some pointless, evidence free rant from you assuring me to the contrary. Sigh.
 * Please don't just point fingers with comments like "I see a Band-Aid approach to fixing a problem here." and pointless references to unrelated issue treads. You have yet to explain how this template fails to address actual issues the wiki has or how there is any better solution to those problems. And we've now filled another few pages worth of wiki with bantering to no purpose. Sigh.
 * This is plainly too much sighing for one response. Kolano (talk) 04:23, 18 November 2015 (CET)


 * Let's look at a page abundant with templates, like Bulbasaur on Bulbapedia. Look at the markup. Each header you see on the main page also appears as MediaWiki markup when you click view source or edit. Not one template includes MediaWiki header markup. This allows for much easier understanding patterns; the relationship between using equal signs and seeing bolded and bigger text. Sure, templates make things much easier to visualize and make maintenance easier, but if created with a haphazard approach, it can cause more issues that you never intended. I keep telling you but maybe we are not communicating effectively. Something is telling me you don't understand MediaWiki as intimately as I do. I'm trying to help you understand. --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) 04:50, 18 November 2015 (CET)


 * As Johnn pointed out, we really don't care about the arbitrary handling of things on other wikis, but sure, let's look. First up, log out. There are no edit buttons to be seen anywhere, as that wiki doesn't allow editing by unregistered users. That alone provides a far higher bar for entry for editors than found here. Beyond that, yes that page is very template heavy, likely to a degree that most novice editors couldn't edit it if they wanted to, as one would likely need to review multiple sets of template documentation to do so. Definitely not something we want to emulate here, but I'm getting distracted.
 * That that, or other wiki's, avoid including headings in templates is completely irreverent. I'm fairly sure with minimal effort I could find a number of wiki's, like this one, that don't comply to that rule. Yes, we don't provide an edit button on these sections, forcing one to use the main page or prior section's one. That seems like a minor concern, against the benefits of the increased consistency of including the shared text in the template and possibly avoiding novice editors modifying issues shared across multiple pages. Even if we moved the heading out, a novice editor will still just get the template on the edit screen. The bar from entry is really not set that high though, simply requiring a minor understanding of how wiki templates are implemented. Again, probably a benefit in reality, since the template use will also signal that the text is shared and edits will modify multiple locations.
 * Please stop with the hand waving (i.e. "it can cause more issues that you never intended"), list specific concrete issues or don't bother responding. Fawning all over your own wiki skills does nothing to aid your argument. Kolano (talk) 06:17, 18 November 2015 (CET)
 * Mandatory log-ins log user activity when edits happen. Otherwise it is by IP address and that can change because the same user can edit from somewhere else in the world. The bar is slightly higher because now the user has to create a username and password. This will help moderators immensely. I'm not looking to turn Dolphin Wiki into a template-heavy ordeal. I'm looking to use templates more effectively here to aid maintenance and even outright reduce it. --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) 06:35, 18 November 2015 (CET)
 * In current state the template is consistent (provides same text in all GC games with native support), simple (just call it and it's done) and also future-proof to me (e.g. in future Dolphin changes or rearrange its Aspect Ratio options, a simple change in the template and all applicable game pages will also have the new info). How this can be a Band-Aid if there's no issues? If I understand you correctly, GlobalProblems is also a "Band-Aid" because it uses headings stored inside variables and yet we hadn't any issue with it since its implementation. Finally, I don't think we need to follow a general "wiki standard" if we already have our own that works very well for what we need. - Jhonn (talk)
 * You are skeptical now but once a more final design of my sandbox infobox takes shape instead of the slapdash version you see now, this template as a whole will be a moot point. The infobox will be even easier than this template as a whole. --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) 04:50, 18 November 2015 (CET)
 * As addressed in prior comments, no infobox revision is going to resolve the problem being addressed by these templates (i.e. shared problem text across wiki pages). Kolano (talk) 06:17, 18 November 2015 (CET)
 * I guess we are at a stalemate with this debate. You are just going to have to see what I do with the sandboxed infobox for you to understand what I am talking about. I can't provide the examples you are looking for unless I edit the Dolphin Wiki pages (MaJoR and Jhonn wouldn't like that). I can only provide examples from other Wikis.
 * All I know for sure is that Dolphin Wiki isn't supplementing the emulator itself very well with the link to the Wiki from the right-click menu. Dolphin Wiki feels like a clone of Wikipedia with minor additions relating to the emulator itself. The goal of my templates are to put as much focus on the emulator as possible, which the current state of Dolphin Wiki is doing a sub-par job. If you can just stick with me through the sandboxing phase of my ideas, I can reassure you that all your worries will be put to rest. --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) 06:35, 18 November 2015 (CET)


 * I agree with Kolano and Jhonn, this current template implementation is quite nicely, and fulfills our needs. There is no need for infobox additions or other complicated solutions. - MaJoR (talk) 11:52, 18 November 2015 (CET)
 * The infobox is getting a overhaul but is currently sandboxed. The slapdash sandbox version you see now will change and will fit better with Dolphin. It's going to have useless info removed and have more vital emulation information replace it. Just go to the talk page of Template:Infobox VG sandbox for details. --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) 21:33, 18 November 2015 (CET)

DLP Problem
So I had been trying out the new DLP extension here to pull in a list of pages using this template. Something seems to be going wrong though as it lists things like "Ice Age 2: The Meltdown", which is just a disambig page. Though it seemed simple enough, maybe my syntax is off somehow. It's strange in any case. Kolano (talk) 22:24, 23 November 2015 (CET)

Template split
Hadn't time to look into detail before but *why* this template got splitted into two? From the recent discussions it seems that for some games (like King Arthur) the built-in AR switch doesn't work, I got it, but why not edit template logic to conditionally change the text from "Auto" to "Force" if an additional parameter is given? That's waay cleaner than creating an almost identical duplicate to handle this (it's what config and testing does to handle channels, for example). I'm completely against having this template split when an super simple addition would achieve the same, I almost reverted it without asking but I think you may have a good reason to do so? - Jhonn (talk) 05:08, 24 November 2015 (CET)


 * It was split for the reason you indicated, the problem text was wrong for a series of titles that instead of "Auto" need to be set to "Force 16:9". Having two templates seemed simpler to me than adding parameters and logic. There are likely to be a few more of these sorts of Problems templates, it seemed like it could get confusing for each to have various sets of parameters. Kolano (talk) 08:05, 24 November 2015 (CET)


 * The only two options that can affect native widescreen are "Auto" and "Force 16:9" so we won't need to deal with lots of parameters and right now only two possible games needing "Force 16:9" surfaced, which makes the second template even more redundant. Also, if Dolphin changes something in its settings we would have to modify more templates to account that (not a big deal, but it's more things to keep track). If that's the only reason I'm gonna to merge them back and do something similar to config and testing, the logic is veeery simple (a simple  does the trick) and it defaults to the most used one, so in this case it would be   for the majority of the titles and   for the two exceptions currently known. - Jhonn (talk) 17:37, 24 November 2015 (CET)


 * The one other benefit is being able to get separate lists of the relevant titles. We only generate a single Native Widescreen Support category, so if we don't use different templates there seems to be no easy way to get separate lists.
 * There are only those two cases for WidescreenGCN, but there will be other non-widescreen related Problems templates. It seems like the eventual list of them would be clearer if each didn't have various custom parameters.
 * Someone still needs to review all the other titles we list under Problems/WidescreenGCNAuto‎, I have a feeling there will be other titles that are also not compatible with Auto AR.
 * Kolano (talk) 19:45, 24 November 2015 (CET)