Difference between revisions of "Talk:The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (GC)"

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''"Whether a game feature is a good thing or not is something completely subjective to the player preference and thus it's not our role as wiki maintainers to say if <insert game feature here> is good or bad. We don't accept biased edits here"''
 
''"Whether a game feature is a good thing or not is something completely subjective to the player preference and thus it's not our role as wiki maintainers to say if <insert game feature here> is good or bad. We don't accept biased edits here"''
  
:I agree with you on this, but by NOT letting players know there are motion blur removal codes, film grain removal codes, deletterbox hacks, etc, you're doing a disservice to those who DO dislike the codes. Again, the codes are OPTIONAL.
+
:I agree with you on this, but by NOT letting players know there are motion blur removal codes, film grain removal codes, deletterbox hacks, etc, you're doing a disservice to those who DO dislike these "features". Again, the codes are OPTIONAL.
  
 
''"Furthermore, those "lots of gamers" could just grab these codes over WiiRD, GC Forever, CodeJunkies, etc."''
 
''"Furthermore, those "lots of gamers" could just grab these codes over WiiRD, GC Forever, CodeJunkies, etc."''

Revision as of 18:54, 4 February 2016

Letterbox code

As stated very clear in our conventions, "Gecko/AR codes that overcome emulation issues, make titles run at higher frame rates or allow using wider Aspect Ratios" can be included, and "any AR/Gecko code that doesn't fit in any of those categories are not allowed and should not be included". On this page we have the following codes:

  • The widescreen code makes the game run at 16:9: It falls in Gecko/AR codes that allow using wider Aspect Ratios because the built-in widescreen hack causes issues
  • The "disable bloom effect" code: It falls in Gecko/AR codes that overcome emulation issues since running at higher IRs will mess the bloom effect

Now about your "Disable Letterbox" code, it does not fall in any of those categories. And no, it's not related to Aspect Ratio codes because the game is supposed to letterbox during aiming and cutscenes and it only does that during these section. This code could be tagged as Aspect Ratio code if, and only if, the game always ran letterboxed, even with the widescreen code available. Since that's not the case, you're essentially disabling a game feature with this code, and thus, it's not allowed here, it does not fit in any of the categories above.

So, unless you know of some emulation bug this code can overcome, do not readd it to this page. Furthermore, it's not the first time we have issues with AR codes here, expect more aggressive actions against those edits if you keep insisting, we're not GC Forever, WiiRD or CodeJunkies to have every AR/Gecko code listed here or to allow any code you may judge useful. - Jhonn (talk) 20:06, 2 February 2016 (CET)


The Wii version doesn't contain cutscene letterboxing, so there is no reason the GameCube version should not either.
MANY users enjoy using de-letterbox and black bar removal codes. They are very popular in the PS2 widescreen hacks community - not everyone enjoys having ugly and unnecessary black bars on the top and bottom of their screen. Some of us actually LIKE being able to see more of the game world. To many players, letterboxing is detrimental with our experience to enjoy the game (whether it be in cutscenes or during gameplay). There was a lot of backlash for The Evil Within and its black bars.
We could simply change the rules to allow for deletterbox codes. No biggie. The wiki conventions and rules can change. The wiki's manual of style is not "written in stone", it's always up for improvement.
And yes, letterboxing IS related to aspect ratio. The Wikipedia article says so. Letterboxing (and pillarboxing) are related to aspect ratio.
Besides, you're being overly anal about this. The codes are an OPTIONAL CHOICE and it only takes 2 lines of the entire article. If you don't want them, then you DON'T have to use them. You can move on with your life and enjoy the game with black bars if you desire. However, you should NOT force your beliefs and preferences on those who DO prefer deletterbox hacks.
And yes, I realize this wiki is not CodeJunkies, but if there ARE core graphical enhancements (like widescreen hacks, deletterboxing, blur removal, ghosting removal, higher framerate, etc), then I believe they should be listed here. It's not like I'm adding "infinite health" and "have all weapons" and "1 hit kill" codes here. Deletterboxing is a core graphical enhancement in my opinion. Devina (talk) 01:38, 3 February 2016 (CET)

"The Wii version doesn't contain cutscene letterboxing, so there is no reason the GameCube version should not either."
Wrong. Although a little smaller, the Wii version does contain cutscene letterboxing, just like in the GC version.
"MANY users enjoy using de-letterbox and black bar removal codes. They are very popular in the PS2 widescreen hacks community - not everyone enjoys having ugly and unnecessary black bars on the top and bottom of their screen. Some of us actually LIKE being able to see more of the game world. To many players, letterboxing is detrimental with our experience to enjoy the game (whether it be in cutscenes or during gameplay). There was a lot of backlash for The Evil Within and its black bars."
Firstly, we aren't a PS2 emulator so just because something is popular there it doesn't necessarily means it's popular here too. Also, I'm not discussing whether the code is useful or not, my point here is that this code does not fall in any currently accepted codes and thus it will not be included.
"We could simply change the rules to allow for deletterbox codes. No biggie. The wiki conventions and rules can change. The wiki's manual of style is not "written in stone", it's always up for improvement."
Wiki conventions and rules can change, true, but we never made such changes just for the sake of accepting something an user judged important to himself. All of those past changes were proposed to improve or to resolve something on the wiki and were followed by discussions and debates until acceptance of most wiki admins and/or the majority of active contributors before being indeed implemented. So, if you really want to start a debate here about this particular code you could start saying why should we start accepting codes that disables game features (regardless of you liking the letterbox or not during the cutscenes/aiming, this is a game feature, the original game developers judged important to switch to letterbox during those sections and as result, in the final release the game does switch to letterbox during cutscenes/aiming). Furthermore, what would be improved and/or resolved on the wiki if we changed the rules to accept that kind of code? What possible impacts this new rule would have if implemented?
"And yes, letterboxing IS related to aspect ratio. The Wikipedia article says so. Letterboxing (and pillarboxing) are related to aspect ratio."
You're generalizing here. I never said letterbox is not related to aspect ratio, what I said before and what I'm reaffirming now is that Zelda TP does not run letterboxed, period, however it has a "feature" (or whatever you would like to call) that switches seamlessly to a letterbox style during aiming and cutscenes. On that context, this code is in no way related to the aspect ratio codes that are allowed here, it essentially disables a game feature (to give a visual cue to the player he's now watching a cutscene or that he entered into aiming/combat mode or whatever interpretation can fit here), thus, not fitting in any category of allowed AR/Gecko codes.
"Besides, you're being overly anal about this. The codes are an OPTIONAL CHOICE and it only takes 2 lines of the entire article. If you don't want them, then you DON'T have to use them. You can move on with your life and enjoy the game with black bars if you desire. However, you should NOT force your beliefs and preferences on those who DO prefer deletterbox hacks."
It's not a matter of "taking only two lines of the entire article", it's essentially a matter of breaking consistency with what is defined in our rules/conventions, not to mention this particular case could (and probably would) be used in future as an argument like "why < insert random AR/Gecko code that doesn't fit in the allowed codes here > can not be included in < insert random game page here > if there's one in Zelda TP GC page that also doesn't fit?". To finish, if, on your understanding, by following a well defined set of editing guidelines and rules means that I'm "forcing beliefs and preferences on those who DO prefer deletterbox hacks", fine, just deal with the reverts of your edits (or quit wiki editing, what you find better for you).
"And yes, I realize this wiki is not CodeJunkies, but if there ARE core graphical enhancements (like widescreen hacks, deletterboxing, blur removal, ghosting removal, higher framerate, etc), then I believe they should be listed here. It's not like I'm adding "infinite health" and "have all weapons" and "1 hit kill" codes here. Deletterboxing is a core graphical enhancement in my opinion."
Games that run letterboxed/pillarboxed all the time can have "disable letterbox" codes listed on their pages without any problem as they would be fitting the definition of Gecko/AR codes that allow wider aspect ratios. But as I said before (and above), that is not the case with Zelda TP, period. - Jhonn (talk) 03:33, 4 February 2016 (CET)

"Wrong. Although a little smaller, the Wii version does contain cutscene letterboxing, just like in the GC version."

I argue that barely even counts as letterboxing because it's so small, but whatever. Even then, I argue whether or not something is intended doesn't matter - I think graphical preference takes priority over intention.

"my point here is that this code does not fall in any currently accepted codes and thus it will not be included."

So we only allow for wider aspect ratio codes horizontally, but not vertically? That's stupid, imo.

"Wiki conventions and rules can change, true, but we never made such changes just for the sake of accepting something an user judged important to himself."

Well, we can now. Look, stuff changes with time. There's a first time for everything. It's part of life. We discuss new ideas, rules, concepts, etc. And it isn't JUST ME, there are tons of players who dislike letterboxing.

"So, if you really want to start a debate here about this particular code you could start saying why should we start accepting codes that disables game features."

To clarify, a "feature" isn't necessarily ALWAYS a good thing. There are good features and bad features. Many games use film grain for example, which annoys a lot of gamers who hate it. Many other games use motion blur and chromatic aberration, yet other gamers often look for a way to disable it or turn it off. There's also some NO BLUR codes for the game, which I ALSO argue should be on this article too.

"Furthermore, what would be improved and/or resolved on the wiki if we changed the rules to accept that kind of code? What possible impacts this new rule would have if implemented?"

Uhh... it's simple, really? We'd allow users to disable letterboxing because a lot of players hate it. For us, it would be an improvement.

"(to give a visual cue to the player he's now watching a cutscene or that he entered into aiming/combat mode or whatever interpretation can fit here)"

First of all, please don't use "he" pronouns, many girls and women and female gamers enjoy playing Zelda, so don't subconsciously re-enforce sexist notions that "only males play video games".
Secondly, not EVERYONE needs a visual cue to know they're watching a cutscene or in aiming mode. I KNOW it's a cutscene because the camera angle changes, there's usually a fade-to-black, I have no control over Link, there's dialog boxes, etc. And I know I'm in aiming mode because I'm holding the trigger. I don't NEED stupid black bars to tell me this.
Again, we can change the wiki's rules and conventions (to allow for deletterbox codes, blur removal codes, film grain removal codes). It ain't rocket science. And I propose we do this. Devina (talk) 06:52, 4 February 2016 (CET)

"I argue that barely even counts as letterboxing because it's so small, but whatever. Even then, I argue whether or not something is intended doesn't matter - I think graphical preference takes priority over intention."
Barely counting or not it's still cutscene letterboxing, a game feature. Also, depending of the cutscene it'll have the same level of letterboxing of the GC version. And about graphical preference taking priority over intention, fine, but we don't cover graphics settings unless they break game accuracy, still a moot point.
"So we only allow for wider aspect ratio codes horizontally, but not vertically? That's stupid, imo."
One last time, for games running letterboxed this type of code fall in wider aspect ratios just fine and it would be accepted without any objection. That is not the case with Zelda TP GC, it does not run letterboxed.
"Well, we can now. Look, stuff changes with time. There's a first time for everything. It's part of life. We discuss new ideas, rules, concepts, etc. And it isn't JUST ME, there are tons of players who dislike letterboxing."
And yet I see only you complaining. Where are these "tons of players" you keep referencing?
"To clarify, a "feature" isn't necessarily ALWAYS a good thing. There are good features and bad features. Many games use film grain for example, which annoys a lot of gamers who hate it. Many other games use motion blur and chromatic aberration, yet other gamers often look for a way to disable it or turn it off. There's also some NO BLUR codes for the game, which I ALSO argue should be on this article too."
Whether a game feature is a good thing or not is something completely subjective to the player preference and thus it's not our role as wiki maintainers to say if <insert game feature here> is good or bad. We don't accept biased edits here, that's why the AR codes allowed here are limited to such very specific cases, along other things. And again, you keep saying about those "lot of gamers who hate <insert game feature here>" and I still see only you complaining. Furthermore, those "lots of gamers" could just grab these codes over WiiRD, GC Forever, CodeJunkies, etc.
"Uhh... it's simple, really? We'd allow users to disable letterboxing because a lot of players hate it. For us, it would be an improvement."
Same as above. Where are these "tons of players" you keep referencing?
"First of all, please don't use "he" pronouns, many girls and women and female gamers enjoy playing Zelda, so don't subconsciously re-enforce sexist notions that "only males play video games"."
Whoa, now I'm sexist? Okay Mr./Mrs. English grammar, that's not my native language but I made question of searching this, expect me using only they/them for now on. Just be less paranoid and stop tagging anyone who used a wrong pronoun as "sexist" over the internet, thanks.
"Secondly, not EVERYONE needs a visual cue to know they're watching a cutscene or in aiming mode. I KNOW it's a cutscene because the camera angle changes, there's usually a fade-to-black, I have no control over Link, there's dialog boxes, etc. And I know I'm in aiming mode because I'm holding the trigger. I don't NEED stupid black bars to tell me this."
Another subjective point. Whether the player likes the visual cue or not it's not our job to rate, especially when it's something the game creators/developers implemented. They have chosen to not give you an option to disable those effects, it's not our wiki goal start listing those things here.
"Again, we can change the wiki's rules and conventions (to allow for deletterbox codes, blur removal codes, film grain removal codes). It ain't rocket science. And I propose we do this."
Fine. If you're starting the discussion here, none of the arguments you provided were enough to change my thoughts about this, so I'm completely opposed of allowing those codes on our wiki. You can go seek opinions of the other admins/active users (Kolano, MaJoR, Lucario, etc), if the majority are in favour (which I personally doubt, given our past problems with AR/Gecko Codes) we can go further on this. - Jhonn (talk) 17:40, 4 February 2016 (CET)

"Where are these "tons of players" you keep referencing?"

A lot of gamers don't even know what letterboxing is, but if you Google "I hate letterboxing", you'll find a lot of us. In fact, a lot of gamers don't even know about deletterbox hacks because they can be difficult to find.

"Whether a game feature is a good thing or not is something completely subjective to the player preference and thus it's not our role as wiki maintainers to say if <insert game feature here> is good or bad. We don't accept biased edits here"

I agree with you on this, but by NOT letting players know there are motion blur removal codes, film grain removal codes, deletterbox hacks, etc, you're doing a disservice to those who DO dislike these "features". Again, the codes are OPTIONAL.

"Furthermore, those "lots of gamers" could just grab these codes over WiiRD, GC Forever, CodeJunkies, etc."

It's not ALWAYS listed at those sites, that's the thing.

"They have chosen to not give you an option to disable those effects"

Don't act like they SPECIFICALLY chose not to include it on purpose. We don't know for sure. A lot of games lack options because devs are usually pressed for time, have deadlines, etc. And again, even if they DID, I argue graphical preference of the player is more important than intention.

"You can go seek opinions of the other admins/active users (Kolano, MaJoR, Lucario, etc), if the majority are in favour"

What's the point? Wikis tend to be an admin circlejerk where other admins tend to agree with the opinions of others just 'cuz you're all "buddy buddy" with each other.
But yes, I advocate the inclusion of deletterbox codes, film grain removal codes and blur removal codes. I'll send them a notice anyway. Devina (talk) 18:46, 4 February 2016 (CET)