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Project:General Discussions: Difference between revisions
→Recent Discussions
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== Recent Discussions == | == Recent Discussions == | ||
Below is listed of recently concluded discussions. You can [[Project:General_Discussions/Archive|search the archive]] for what was discussed since General Discussions page was created. | Below is listed of recently concluded discussions. You can [[Project:General_Discussions/Archive|search the archive]] for what was discussed since General Discussions page was created. | ||
=== 16:9 and F-Zero GX's custom cars problem restoration === | |||
Since the edit summary has very little space, I'm going to fill in the details here. Both of these problems (and the powersliding bug) are problems that users encountered in the emulator and asked about on the forums or made issue reports about. The custom car bug was frequently encountered and everyone thought it was Dolphin's fault, and many users have been caught running this game with widescreen hacks and asking for help with bugs! The problems are there to preemptively inform them so they will not experience the problem in the first place. They are in the problems area because to a user, it is a problem, and the problems area is where solutions to problems lie. They are however on the bottom, since they are the least important. As for 16:9 being in enhancements, Lucario's logic is not entirely wrong, as you have to do it on the console so it is an issue that would be encountered there as well. But it is wrong in that it can't be an enhancement if it is a feature of the game and not something dolphin is adding to it. Furthermore, the problem of users using the widescreen hack and then having problems with it IS a dolphin-unique problem, and this is meant to address that specifically. So the problems area is the spot it belongs in most. - [[User:MaJoR|MaJoR]] ([[User talk:MaJoR|talk]]) 07:48, 4 November 2015 (CET) | |||
:I haven't thought of the part where users should turn "widescreen hack" off when using the widescreen mode in the game, hence the problem on emulation side where the widescreen hack exist. I'll give you that. I'm also thinking of a new section titled "User Errors" where we can list common errors that was on the user's side. Then the custom car problem can go there and the two players one ctrl problem in Super Smash Bros. Brawl and possibly others. What's your thoughts on this? [[User:Lucario|Lucario]] ([[User talk:Lucario|talk]]) 08:50, 4 November 2015 (CET) | |||
::Hmm... I think a new section is a good idea! But I'm not sure "Users Errors" is a good naming for it though... What about bugs that happen in the game that dolphin recreates, but that users think are actually dolphin problems? See the F-Zero GX powersliding bug, star fox adventures and super mario galaxy reflections, etc etc. Where would they go? So a different term might be a good idea... - [[User:MaJoR|MaJoR]] ([[User talk:MaJoR|talk]]) 09:58, 4 November 2015 (CET) | |||
:::Major raises a good point here. I would like to be consistent in how we handle things, so many of these non-emu bugs have been irksome in the Problems sections. Perhaps "Non-Emulation Problems" would be a inoffensive title for these. [[User:Kolano|Kolano]] ([[User talk:Kolano|talk]]) 10:05, 4 November 2015 (CET) | |||
::::"Non-Emulation Problems" sounds better and it can cover more problems above, but doesn't felt right for certain kinds of problem, such as the two players and one controller in SSBB. Dolphin is still at fault for allowing the different controller settings to use the same device twice. I was thinking of a less technical term and I came up with probably the best term for all of these problems! "Common Misconceptions"? | |||
::::On a second thought, I'm viewing the two players one controller as a real problem and that it should stay under the problem section. I can't think of any more user problems that "Non-Emulation Problems" can't cover. Either that or "Common Misconceptions", or we should continue to think of a better term that covers the user problem and sometime both user and Dolphin problem to some extent? [[User:Lucario|Lucario]] ([[User talk:Lucario|talk]]) 11:55, 4 November 2015 (CET) | |||
::::"Emulation Information and Misconceptions"? [[User:Lucario|Lucario]] ([[User talk:Lucario|talk]]) 12:58, 4 November 2015 (CET) | |||
:::::Just a heads-up, two players on one controller does fall in the new section, SSBB allows mixing Wiimotes with GC Controllers in real hardware, it's not Dolphin fault if the user configured the same bindings for both GCPad and emulated Wiimote. This also covers cases like [[Tatsunoko vs. Capcom: Ultimate All-Stars]] (which clearly says at the beginning that you can't use a Wiimote while a GC controller is plugged) and [[Sonic Riders: Zero Gravity]] (which already have a problem entry for that issue -- it should go in a new section). Said that, "Emulation Info" sounds kinda wrong for me (native 16:9 and mixing controllers can be done in real hardware too) so I would choose Common Misconceptions/Mistakes. And what about listing that section before Problems/Global Problems? Users having those common issues would quickly find the info they need without reading/rolling through all other problems (useful in pages with long problems, like F-Zero GX or SSBB). Thoughts? - [[User:Jhonn|Jhonn]] ([[User talk:Jhonn|talk]]) | |||
::::::I like "False Problems". Why? This excludes ''16:9 GCN'' because this is not a problem on any level, isn't an enhancement as defined by Dolphin emulator staff, and it sets up [[Template:WidescreenGCN]] better. --[[User:Wildgoosespeeder|Wildgoosespeeder]] ([[User talk:Wildgoosespeeder|talk]]) 21:16, 5 November 2015 (CET) | |||
::::::Also there are images in [[F-Zero GX#Emulation Information]] section. Since they aren't bug images in the Dolphin sense, these images need to be categorized differently. --[[User:Wildgoosespeeder|Wildgoosespeeder]] ([[User talk:Wildgoosespeeder|talk]]) 21:42, 5 November 2015 (CET) | |||
:::::::The reason I came up with "Emulation Information" is because it sounds more general than "Common Misconceptions". It's very general that even the "problem" section can move under it. I'm viewing "problem" and "emulation info" similar except that "emulation info" can arbitrarily accept more things, especially the misconceptions and others that Dolphin won't fix/help because of the user incompetence. I was thinking this might cover the font issue in Sonic game as well as it still requires users to dump the BIOS for best accuracy. Not something Dolphin can help. Though, Kolano was thinking otherwise. Maybe Kolano didn't see the "Emulation Information" an applicable term for the emulation problems as well as I do (until he read this?!). Also about moving that section up above the problem section, I'd say go for it! [[User:Lucario|Lucario]] ([[User talk:Lucario|talk]]) 22:43, 5 November 2015 (CET) | |||
::::::::I think emulation issues is a perfectly good term. Its clear on what its purpose is without being so specific that it excludes too much. It's good! - [[User:MaJoR|MaJoR]] ([[User talk:MaJoR|talk]]) 11:33, 9 November 2015 (CET) | |||
:::::::::Just to make sure, are you suggesting Emulation Issues or you're OK with Emulation Information? - [[User:Jhonn|Jhonn]] ([[User talk:Jhonn|talk]]) | |||
::::::::::I'll give ''emulation information'' this: It '''is''' better than what we use to have but I still find it not the best solution to the problem. --[[User:Wildgoosespeeder|Wildgoosespeeder]] ([[User talk:Wildgoosespeeder|talk]]) 22:46, 9 November 2015 (CET) | |||
:::::::::::Um... I don't care? By consensus the new section already is official, I was just asking MaJoR specifically about her thoughts of the new section naming. - [[User:Jhonn|Jhonn]] ([[User talk:Jhonn|talk]]) | |||
::::::::::::Oh! I'm sorry! I meant Emulation Information. - [[User:MaJoR|MaJoR]] ([[User talk:MaJoR|talk]]) 05:35, 10 November 2015 (CET) | |||
=== 16:9 / Outdated Banners === | |||
Just saw [[F-Zero GX/sandbox]] and it's a big '''NO!''' from me: | |||
* The banner is ugly and puts the 16:9 info before anything else as if it was the top priority info in a game page (which clearly it's not the case). | |||
To finish, we already are discussing a new section for problems that aren't really problems (native 16:9, mixed controllers, etc), which looks waaaay better than this and just reinforces my point of you trying to fix a non-existent problem with this template. - [[User:Jhonn|Jhonn]] ([[User talk:Jhonn|talk]]) | |||
:The design of the banners are supposed to be an eyesore as it draws your attention to the article's lack of completeness (except for the 16:9 and dual-layer banners because that information needs to have more emphasis on them than having it be somewhere easily missed in the article). It's not supposed to be there but it is with a purpose. I'm trying to give incentive to make the article/section in question to keep it up-to-date. --[[User:Wildgoosespeeder|Wildgoosespeeder]] ([[User talk:Wildgoosespeeder|talk]]) 20:08, 7 November 2015 (CET) | |||
:Keep in mind that [[F-Zero GX/sandbox]] is a proof of concept and should be regarded as a prototype of the idea. Refinements will be made on both a template format level and page layout level. | |||
:* It might be ugly now but the idea behind banners is to be a sign with important information. The position it is located now may change later. | |||
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::<nowiki>*sigh*</nowiki> And not related to this but why you also want to convert problems into banners? Dual-Layer games already have its own category which is easy to reach from the bottom of the page, GC games with 16:9 native support already have an entry in problems section and in those cases both will be moved to the new Emulation Info/Common Misconceptions (or whatever name we choose) and can also be accessed through its own categories. And about your complaint regarding unnecessary edits, font problem in Sonic Mega Collection was moved back and forth because of my initial complaints about the subject but eventually settled in Problems section. How this template or your banners-that-go-before-anything-else would have improved this particular case? Just stop, you made an ugly proof of concept where I can't see any way to improve, nor it provides anything better than the new section we're discussing in [[Talk:F-Zero GX]], not to mention you didn't provide any feasible reason. Unless other admins (MaJoR, Kolano) or active members like Lucario weight in pointing something positive in favouring this approach, you can consider this whole "problem rating" thing something that won't go anywhere else besides the F-Zero GX sandbox. ''If it ain't broke, don't fix it'' - [[User:Jhonn|Jhonn]] ([[User talk:Jhonn|talk]]) | |||
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::::*'''"Maybe it's better to also have in that Infobox the WidescreenGCN and DualLayerWiiDisc banners? That might be the happy middle ground that everyone will like when it comes to the Template:WidescreenGCN and Template:DualLayerWiiDiscs banners."''' - From all of this discussion that's the only thing you brought that may work, from my point of view. Again, those banner templates are completely unnecessary. First, banners won't look good inside the Infobox no matter how you design them, second, if we're going to put new things in Infobox we could just make the its template handle the categories for those cases as well (reinforcing there's no need for separate templates like WidescreenGCN and DualLayerWiiDisc) since it already handles lots of categories based on the info put in the Infobox. My approach to get those "notes" in the Infobox would be discrete icons with mouse-hover, like the peripherals section of [http://www.wiibrew.org/wiki/Homebrew_Browser any homebrew app in WiiBrew], they are discrete (unlikely banners) and doesn't disrupt content flow. | |||
::::To finish, you still failed to provide any benefit of using {{tl|RatingProblemFix}} and none of the other active admins/members shared thoughts in favour of this template, so, still don't expect this template going anywhere else besides the sandboxes, as far as I'm concerned. And about Template:WidescreenGCN and Template:DualLayerWiiDiscs, they should go as well, I suggest you trying something like peripherals section of Homebrew Channel infobox. - [[User:Jhonn|Jhonn]] ([[User talk:Jhonn|talk]]) | |||
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:::::* I have since revised the pages and cleaned up any ugliness based on your feedback. | |||
:::::* Banners were updated and moved locations. I don't know what to tell you. Either you refuse to accept my answers or there is a true miscommunication going on here. | |||
:::::* The ratings are there to quickly evaluate importance of certain settings deviating from the default. I don't mind talk pages but what I found kind of irritating was someone else not clear what the problems section was for. | |||
:::::* Looked at the [[Project:Wiki Conventions#Problems|problems section]]. There is nothing about emulator vs. real hardware but rather formatting best practices for that section and talking about Dolphin's programming quirks. I rest my case. | |||
:::::* The categories is still a disorganized mess and the emulation information section is still easy to miss (I still like ''False Problems'' because there is more precision with using that phrasing). The banners are there to make things easier to spot. | |||
:::::* You keep taking my ideas as finalized when they are not even close to being final. That is why they are in a sandbox. Iteration is the key word here. This idea I have may go through several design iterations until it looks practical and noticeable. | |||
:::::Overall, only you and [[User:Lucario|Lucario]] seem to have disapproval of my attempted improvements. [[User:Kolano|Kolano]] is showing concern but it seems he is willing to see how I revise my implementations to look nicer. --[[User:Wildgoosespeeder|Wildgoosespeeder]] ([[User talk:Wildgoosespeeder|talk]]) 05:20, 6 November 2015 (CET) | |||
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::::::* Those banners you've slapped into infobox still are ugly and takes a lot of space but already looks somewhat better than that ad-like thing in the top of the page. However, put two or more of those banners in the same infobox and you get an even messy and long infobox. As I said, change that to discrete icons with mouse-hover text ([http://www.wiibrew.org/wiki/Homebrew_Browser like the example I gave from WiiBrew]) if you ever want this going official (or provide us a concept better than WiiBrew example). And just get rid of those separate templates by putting its categorize-this-page thing directly in Infobox template, '''they're not necessary'''! | |||
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:::::::* I'm kind of concerned that if I do like WiiBrew, my current configuration will lose visibility of more vital information such as DVD9 and 16:9 GCN games as the icons are easily recognizable for peripherals that the app supports and not technical details. I really like how WiiBrew handles warning the user about NAND modifications in the [http://www.wiibrew.org/wiki/SaveGame_Manager_GX SaveGame Manager GX] example. I know the templates are unnecessary at this point but for the purposes right now, until I can settle on a design that works, it will be in that structure for now. | |||
--[[User:Wildgoosespeeder|Wildgoosespeeder]] ([[User talk:Wildgoosespeeder|talk]]) 21:44, 6 November 2015 (CET) | |||
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::::::::* That's exactly my point, that "vital" information isn't that important (especially in the infobox), the icons with mouse-hover still looks like the best approach for me (especially when this kind of info will probably be detailed in the new Emu Info section as well). You can try a "NAND Warning from WiiBrew" concept to show us how they would look, just don't forget they use a slightly small font and no icons at all (and even that, still draws more attention than it should, in my opinion). [[User:Jhonn|Jhonn]] ([[User talk:Jhonn|talk]]) | |||
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:::::::::* [[Template:DualLayerWiiDiscs]] is pretty vital for some games emulating accurately while [[Template:WidescreenGCN]] is only vital to those who want their GCN games in widescreen and might be misinformed about the select GCN games that support it natively. | |||
:::::::::* I consider each mentioning a part of the iteration process. My initial idea was to include a section about performance over accuracy in conjunction with the current problem section that is about accuracy over performance. I consider my ratings idea a second form of my idea where the advancement is not requiring a redundant section. Instead of rejecting the idea outright, hypothetically assume that if these changes were to go in effect, what would make them more appealing? I need feedback on that and you are failing to supply me with that. Who knows? Maybe my efforts are a waste of time. I don't know for sure because it's too early to tell. I don't think so because I do believe the core idea I have can be useful for Dolphin Wiki users, even though it's current appearance may not be. | |||
:::::::::* I'm pretty much done with my ratings idea. I need more feedback to further refine the idea. Telling me to quit working on it isn't useful in the slightest. --[[User:Wildgoosespeeder|Wildgoosespeeder]] ([[User talk:Wildgoosespeeder|talk]]) 04:13, 7 November 2015 (CET) | |||
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:::::::::* No, they are not. If you incorrectly dump a dual-layer game, in most cases the game will instantly crash Dolphin when accessing specific areas/stages or won't even boot, clearly indicating something is veery wrong with your dump. The only exception to this case is Super Smash Bros Brawl, where everything despite Subspace Emissary movies will work with a incorrect dump, but it's already noted on its own entry (currently in Problems section, but it'll transition to the new section eventually). | |||
:::::::::::It's not really correct to say the Super Smash Bros Brawl issue is an "incorrect dump" it's a correct dump of a hacked version of the game modified to fit on a single layer disc. | |||
::::::::::::The section I created refers to unaltered official copies of SSBB in ISO form straight from the Nintendo warehouse. Having a hacked version run on Dolphin isn't a priority as I have come to understand the current focus of its development. --[[User:Wildgoosespeeder|Wildgoosespeeder]] ([[User talk:Wildgoosespeeder|talk]]) 20:36, 7 November 2015 (CET) | |||
=== Formatting Suggestion for Compilation Discs === | |||
I noticed some articles, such as [[Intellivision Lives!]], [[Sonic Mega Collection]], and [[Interactive Multi Game Demo Disc 2001-10]], are hard to read what the compilation consists of. I have worked on a table consisting of MediaWiki code and no templates that addresses that issue and I think I found a clear winner, found [[Interactive_Multi_Game_Demo_Disc_2001-10/sandbox|here]] taking [[Interactive Multi Game Demo Disc 2001-10]] as a base. Should I start implementing this for every article about compilation discs contents or does the table need work? --[[User:Wildgoosespeeder|Wildgoosespeeder]] ([[User talk:Wildgoosespeeder|talk]]) 23:52, 23 April 2015 (CEST) | |||
:It's Ok for me as it is now, my only requirement is converting your table into a template before implementing it everywhere: theoretically it's something we're gonna use in various pages (assuming everyone else agrees and we actually implement it), so, making it as a template allow us doing quick edits in the future that would reflect in every page using this box. - [[User:Jhonn|Jhonn]] ([[User talk:Jhonn|talk]]) | |||
=== Emulation Information Position === | |||
Lucario, in his recent edits, put the Emulation Information section above problems, while I have historically put them below. It is something of a subjective decision, but most of the time the problems are minor, and not as critical as emulation bugs, so historically, by our conventions, they have been placed below other problems. So I assumed based on that that the Emulation Information would be placed beneath problems, and sometimes they were, and other times they weren't depending on who entered it. I was going to just move it all, but this could cause issues in the future, so we should probably get some consensus established. What location for the emulation information do you guys prefer? - [[User:MaJoR|MaJoR]] ([[User talk:MaJoR|talk]]) 10:46, 17 November 2015 (CET) | |||
: As far as I remember, we sticked with Emulation Information above problems but I'm not sure either (would have to dig into that long discussions -- too lazy to do that now). So, I think we should put it above. Yes, they're minor, but it's also some very common problems, thus, it's what the user wold read first if they have issues with a bad dump (SSBB case), problems with widescreen hack (GC games with native support) or controller issues (Wii games), providing information quicker instead of rolling through the entire problems section, that can take a big amount of space (e.g. Wind Waker, which have lots of problems listed). And since emulation information isn't a section that's going to be crowded (so far I haven't saw any page with more than two small entries) I think it's a win-win case (the full page would be something like Emu Info => Global Problems => Problems => Enhancements => Config => Version Compat => Testing => Gameplay Screens => Gameplay Videos => Navigation -- Emu Info and Enhancements only present in pages that have suitable entries, Global Problems only in VC pages and Navigation only where applicable). - [[User:Jhonn|Jhonn]] ([[User talk:Jhonn|talk]]) | |||
:It's position doesn't bother me one way or the other. To hopefully build consensus I'll say list them first. [[User:Kolano|Kolano]] ([[User talk:Kolano|talk]]) 15:40, 17 November 2015 (CET) | |||
::Well, I don't entirely agree, but you have reasonable thought behind it, and Kolano got me :P. The top it is! - [[User:MaJoR|MaJoR]] ([[User talk:MaJoR|talk]]) 11:32, 18 November 2015 (CET) | |||
=== Config Template Slight Wording Tweak === | === Config Template Slight Wording Tweak === | ||