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Project:General Discussions: Difference between revisions
Added PAGESINCAT, moved standards suggestion and media gallery consensus to completed discussions (seems done, move it back if you disagree).
(→Open Discussions: Migrating infobox discussion off my page) |
(Added PAGESINCAT, moved standards suggestion and media gallery consensus to completed discussions (seems done, move it back if you disagree).) |
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I fear we loose the advantages of the automation and end up with inconsistent pages if we operate in a mixed mode. This only seems to be a real issue with ~10 pages, which also seems far too few out of the 1000+ total to be much put off by. Hopefully we can get some input from others. [[User:Kolano|Kolano]] ([[User talk:Kolano|talk]]) 11:18, 1 December 2012 (CET) | I fear we loose the advantages of the automation and end up with inconsistent pages if we operate in a mixed mode. This only seems to be a real issue with ~10 pages, which also seems far too few out of the 1000+ total to be much put off by. Hopefully we can get some input from others. [[User:Kolano|Kolano]] ([[User talk:Kolano|talk]]) 11:18, 1 December 2012 (CET) | ||
=== | === Compatibility List PAGESINCAT === | ||
[[Virtual Console]] says "This lists 24 titles released on Virtual Console for the Nintendo Wii video game system". ...there is way more than 24 games in that list. It is, of course, because of the pages in category function. Only 24 virtual console pages have been made, but there are hundreds available which exist on the list as empties. This quirk is present on almost all of the compatibility lists right now, as there are a ton of empties all over this wiki thanks to scripts which added games to the list to keep it accurate and encourage people to add pages. I support that concept: filling them in slowly over time sure beats trying to do it all at once. The pages in category issue could always be solved by making tons of pages fill empties, but uh... | |||
1. It's a lot of work, even if the pages are blank except for the categories | |||
2. Newbies don't know how to approach blank pages, which means we either do more work now (no blank pages) or later (fixing problems from blank pages) | |||
3. by the time the wiki's list is updated, that's ''thousands of empties to fill'', so yea, alot of work. | |||
Really, we'd need scripts to do this effectively, and that means figuring out the scripting API, getting delroth's and parlane's help, and alllll that. Without scripts, that means making thousands of pages manually, and that would take obscene amounts of time, even if they are blanks (something I think is quite dumb). So yea, making that PAGESINCAT thing display the right number is a absolute gigantic mess, so I say let's just avoid the problem entirely and remove the PAGESINCAT bit from all the pages. I don't think anyone is going to object to me saving us obscene amounts of work, so I'm going to just remove it. But in case anyone has alternatives, and because the tiny edit summary blank couldn't fit the explanation, I'm putting it here. - [[User:MaJoR|MaJoR]] ([[User talk:MaJoR|talk]]) 12:00, 4 December 2012 (CET) | |||
==Suspicious Users== | === Suspicious Users === | ||
I suspect a spammer is trying to build up some user accounts. These users have odd names that seem randomly generated, and were created without performing any edits: | I suspect a spammer is trying to build up some user accounts. These users have odd names that seem randomly generated, and were created without performing any edits: | ||
*Racn42pysi | *Racn42pysi | ||
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:Ofcourse. We all have to be on one line for things to happen, so we'll discuss until that is settled. As for what I meant, I thought it was better to create a mockup then try to explain it. [http://i.minus.com/ibaZtTbHIN7x01.jpg This] is what I meant for the media gallery, or atleast, something close to that. So they don't necessarily have to be the same size. As for the additional video links, if we have Javascript/PHP support, that can be easily settled. Though we might have to create a location where people could contribute their videos to. - [[User:Garteal|Garteal]] ([[User talk:Garteal|talk]]) 12:48, 11 November 2012 (CET) | :Ofcourse. We all have to be on one line for things to happen, so we'll discuss until that is settled. As for what I meant, I thought it was better to create a mockup then try to explain it. [http://i.minus.com/ibaZtTbHIN7x01.jpg This] is what I meant for the media gallery, or atleast, something close to that. So they don't necessarily have to be the same size. As for the additional video links, if we have Javascript/PHP support, that can be easily settled. Though we might have to create a location where people could contribute their videos to. - [[User:Garteal|Garteal]] ([[User talk:Garteal|talk]]) 12:48, 11 November 2012 (CET) | ||
=== Standard suggestion: the unified Media Gallery === | |||
Ok, I've just finished my work with the [[Template:VideoGallery|video gallery template]] and I'm trying now to set the final standard for the Media Gallery. My suggestion: | |||
* Every page have a section named "Media Gallery" | |||
* In this section, by using the [[Template:VideoGallery|video gallery template]], 3 videos will be randomly selected and displayed as the first three thumbnails (if the game page have less than 4 videos, the videos should be included with the normal [[Template:YouTube|YouTube template]], as using the [[Template:VideoGallery|video gallery template]] will have no utility with less than 4 videos) | |||
* After the first 3 videos thumbnails, we'll have countless screenshots included through the [[Template:Image|Image template]] | |||
* By using these templates, we make sure that all thumbnails (both images and videos) have the fixed size of 300px. | |||
* If the game page have more than 3 videos (and use the [[Template:VideoGallery|video gallery template]]), after the Media Gallery section we'll have another section named "More Videos" with links for the another videos. | |||
* At least in my desktop, running at 1440x900 this isn't an issue, but if necessary, add a <code><div style="clear:left"></div></code> after the first 3 videos thumbnails to fix any issue we could have with the floating elements in computers with higher desktop resolutions... | |||
Take a look at [[Template:VideoGallery/test]], is the SSBB page using the standard I'm suggesting. It's already using the random thumbnails feature, but if you guys want to see another example in how the [[Template:VideoGallery|video gallery template]] works, take a look at [[Xenoblade Chronicles]]. Well, what do you guys think about this standard? I think we can already start using it. - [[User:Jhonn|Jhonn]] ([[User talk:Jhonn|talk]]) | |||
Well, personally, I still prefer smaller thumbnails for screenshots. The goal is to have a fair amount of them, and we could end up with quite a few. Plus the isolation between screenshots and videos is very clean and organized. And well, I just think it looks nice. So, in my opinion, I'd rather we go with something other than the media gallery. As such, I'll suggest an alternative like what I proposed before: 200px thumbnails for screenshots in a gameplay screenshots section, and then the youtube template with 3 ~300px videos and then links in a gameplay screenshots section. Let's see what everyone thinks between the two of them. And no matter which standard we go with, you did awesome work Jhonn. - [[User:MaJoR|MaJoR]] ([[User talk:MaJoR|talk]]) 01:46, 14 November 2012 (CET) | |||
: Ok, my only request is to ALWAYS use the [[Template:Image|image template]] or one of the two video templates (using [[Template:VideoGallery|video gallery template]] only if the page have more than 3 videos), no matter which standard we go with. The thumbnail size can easily edited, directly in the template, by replacing the 300px tag with the desired size and changing the 275px tag with the desired size minus 25px (for example, to make the template generate 200px thumbnails, we should have 200px in the first tag and 175px in the second). This request is to make quicker fixes in future (like what was done with testing section) and because using the <code><gallery></gallery></code> tags or calling embedvideo directly gave me countless issues with floating elements and made the thumbnails size be "fixed" with a smaller size, even when specifying a higher width... - [[User:Jhonn|Jhonn]] ([[User talk:Jhonn|talk]]) | |||
I'm in agreement that the screenshots/video thumbnails should vary in size to more easily distinguish them. Related to such I think separate Gameplay Videos/Gameplay Screenshots sections make sense. I'm still unclear we will ever have that many screenshots though, since the few for Resident Evil were all we ever got previously. Having the VideoGallery template is very nice though. Thanks so much for working it out John. It resolves my primary prior concern of not wanting to have to take time picking and choosing videos (though we probably still need to generate some rules to restrict videos, such as ones that point to pirated content in their descriptions/initial comments).[[User:Kolano|Kolano]] ([[User talk:Kolano|talk]]) 02:23, 14 November 2012 (CET) | |||
:There are TONS of screenshots on the screenshots forum thread. I have dialup, so I can't do it, but someone could very easily port those over. - [[User:MaJoR|MaJoR]] ([[User talk:MaJoR|talk]]) 03:06, 14 November 2012 (CET) | |||
Well, I guess we have a consensus then? Separated Gameplay Screenshots and Gameplay Videos, with 200px for screenshots using the image template and 300px for videos using the video template? Any comments on specifics of that? Hmm, maybe we should make a new template just for screenshots, for the 200px and to remove descriptions. That way we could keep the image template as an optional choice for bug images and the like? [[User:MaJoR|MaJoR]] ([[User talk:MaJoR|talk]]) 08:24, 17 November 2012 (CET) | |||
: Ok, this is the standard. We can start commiting this standard in the game pages. I'll make the [[Template:Image]] more configurable when I have free time, specifically, to don't include the caption (screenshot only mode) via a template parameter... For now, just use the template without any tag in the second parameter, when I implement this, the caption space will be automatically wiped out) - [[User:Jhonn|Jhonn]] ([[User talk:Jhonn|talk]]) | |||
::Glad you are adding a way to remove the caption space, I tried to get it sorted but failed, badly. Hmm. One little problem: almost all of the videos on the wiki have been changed over to the youtube template thanks to Kolano. Should we just use that, or go with the video template? - [[User:MaJoR|MaJoR]] ([[User talk:MaJoR|talk]]) 09:36, 18 November 2012 (CET) | |||
::: We should use the video gallery only if the game page have more than 3 videos... The rest of the pages, with 3 videos or less, should just use the YouTube template... I think there is no way of checking this instead of manually checking every game page to see which page have more than 3 vidoes, and then, updating it to the video gallery template =/ [[User:Jhonn|Jhonn]] ([[User talk:Jhonn|talk]]) | |||
:::: *tries it. Oh... Set it to just one video and it generates 3 copies of the video. Crap. That complicates the standard a bit... - [[User:MaJoR|MaJoR]] ([[User talk:MaJoR|talk]]) 02:17, 19 November 2012 (CET) | |||
=== Media Gallery standard: the final consensus=== | |||
Well, about 1 month of discussion and a lot of working in various templates. Here is the final consensus: | |||
* Every game page will have 2 sections: Gameplay Screenshots and Gameplay Videos (in this order) | |||
* In the gameplay screenshots section we'll have countless screenshots, all of them MUST BE embedded using the [[Template:Image|image template]], with no caption, at 200px size. | |||
* In the gameplay videos section we'll have countless videos, all of them MUST BE embedded using the [[Template:VideoGallery|video gallery template]] which will automatically choose 3 random videos to embed as 300px thumbnails and add the rest of the videos as links, below the 3 thumbnails, by calling <code><nowiki>{{#var:videolinks}}</nowiki></code>. | |||
* The gameplay videos section should ALWAYS use the [[Template:VideoGallery|video gallery template]], even if the page have less than 4 videos (the template automatically handle these cases now) | |||
* EXTRA: for bug images and things like that, we should use the [[Template:Image|image template]] with a caption. Then, the thumbnail will be set as 300px, with the caption in one line (getting automatically truncated, if necessary). I'm setting this thumbnail as 300px to distinguish them form the screenshots and gameplay videos and because a lot of pages already uses the 300px size when an image is embedded with a specific problem. Also, having 200px screenshots for the bug images make the caption too small. | |||
That's it. I already fixed everything in the templates and updated [[Template:VideoGallery/test]] to fit in this standard, I think this should be the standard template, so we can start commiting this damn thing in all pages (c'mon guys, this discussions is taking too many time!) But since this is a community driven project, I'll ask again: what do you guys think about this standard? Any objection? - [[User:Jhonn|Jhonn]] ([[User talk:Jhonn|talk]]) | |||
:Works for me. It's very easy to use, I like it. I have one tiny nitpick though: is it necessary to have the "cap" separated in the video template? Stuff like '''<nowiki>|vid1=R9u_BJXRyuI|cap1=super smash bros brawl in 3d dolphin emulator</nowiki>''' could very easily be '''<nowiki>|vid1=R9u_BJXRyuI|super smash bros brawl in 3d dolphin emulator</nowiki>''' instead, unless there is something in the template to prevent it of course. It's just a little nitpick. Awesome work on the templates Jhonn. - [[User:MaJoR|MaJoR]] ([[User talk:MaJoR|talk]]) 23:22, 19 November 2012 (CET) | |||
::Well, the way how templates work doesn't allow it. I can get parameters without any prefix by using {{{1}}}, {{{2}}}, etc, but since the template randomly select one of the N videos that have been included, I cant "find" the number that correspond to the capN parameter of the selected video (because this number vary depending in which entry the template randomly selected). To avoid these kind of issues, we need to declare the parameters, allowing to get the capN by using {{{capN}}} regardless of what location it's defined, so, from my knowledge, there is no way of implementing this... - [[User:Jhonn|Jhonn]] ([[User talk:Jhonn|talk]]) | |||
:::Gotcha. It's fine, it's very easy to use now. - [[User:MaJoR|MaJoR]] ([[User talk:MaJoR|talk]]) 02:59, 20 November 2012 (CET) | |||
:Unless delroth is able to filter the rest of the screenshots out, we might have to limit the screenshots, since it'll really mess up the game threads in the forums. As for the video section, are you able to ''hide'' the rest of the links, leaving only the embedded videos visible? That would make things much cleaner, and will let you put the video section above the screenshot section, since it'll be a hassle to scroll down to the video section if the screenshot section becomes huge. Last, but certainly not least, I would like to say you've done an amazing job with the video template Jhonn. [[User:Garteal|─ Garteal]] ([[User talk:Garteal|talk]]) 16:13, 20 November 2012 (CET) | |||
:: I've updated the [[Template:VideoGallery/test]] with you suggestion Garteal. Looks good to me, because it already prevent any future issues with the Gallery standard if we have too many videos or too many screenshots. So, I'll commit this to [[Project:Wiki Conventions]] and then, we can start using this as the final standard for the media gallery... - [[User:Jhonn|Jhonn]] ([[User talk:Jhonn|talk]]) | |||
:: Whoa whoa, why are the screenshots below the videos? *looks* Oh... Well... I disagree with this. The screenshots are smaller specifically to address this problem. And as Kolano said early, we probably won't have tons of them anyway. And this solution creates a bigger problem than it solves; it creates a mental disconnect. Having the video links so far away from the video thumbnails is simply making the links ''disappear'', camouflaged in a sea of text below it. I don't think the composition works like this. The only way to avoid that disconnect is to keep the the videos all together. Honestly, if we are going to worry about this, then the best solution for this would be to just go ahead and set up a proper gallery like the videogallery and get it over with. - [[User:MaJoR|MaJoR]] ([[User talk:MaJoR|talk]]) 07:19, 21 November 2012 (CET) | |||
:: I agree with Major. Separating the video links into a separate section seems silly, and the extra title just eats up more page space. [[User:Kolano|Kolano]] ([[User talk:Kolano|talk]]) 07:48, 21 November 2012 (CET) | |||
:: The order of the sections is subjective. I just explained what ''my'' thoughts were on it. The screenshots being smaller won't solve anything if a boatload of screenshots get added eventually. Just pick whichever gets the most votes. Personally I'm for either. The ''More Videos'' section can be removed if the links in the ''Gameplay Videos'' are hidden. (Why are they visible again btw?) I'm glad we're finally getting to a final decision. :) [[User:Garteal|─ Garteal]] ([[User talk:Garteal|talk]]) 11:57, 21 November 2012 (CET) | |||
::: The overflow videos are shown as links so the full set of videos are available for view. Without the links one may need to refresh the page many times before a newly added video would be shown. Only 3 (at random) use the embed which takes up more space. If you are really concerned about the space consumed by videos we'll need to discuss rules to trim the video lists, a topic I was generally hoping to avoid. [[User:Kolano|Kolano]] ([[User talk:Kolano|talk]]) 19:56, 21 November 2012 (CET) | |||
:One other issue with the VideoGallery template. As far as I can tell it only supports YouTube videos, there are video links from a variety of other video sites on the wiki, so we need to decide how to handle them if we transition to using the VideoGallery template.[[User:Kolano|Kolano]] ([[User talk:Kolano|talk]]) 07:51, 22 November 2012 (CET) | |||
:: Wich other services? The template itself already support other video services (just add srvN=<name of the service> before video ID. In the first time, I need to create a copy of youtube template modified for other services, but this can be done in no time... Well, to prevent any future issue, I'll add the initial template for all services, ok? [[User:Jhonn|Jhonn]] ([[User talk:Jhonn|talk]]) | |||
::: Ok, almost all services supported by EmbedVideo plugin can be used with [[Template:VideoGallery]] now. Edutopia service wasn't added because this site simply embed videos from YouTube. Revver and TeacherTube weren't added because these services doesn't exist anymore. FunnyOrDie and Vimeo were added but EmbedVideo plugin is outdated, generating broken thumbnails (these 2 services works only in "link mode"). Sevenload wasn't added because this site doesn't work here where I live (Brazil), so I couldn't access the site to get a sample video link and add support... [[User:Jhonn|Jhonn]] ([[User talk:Jhonn|talk]]) | |||
:::: Thanks Jhonn, now we just need to update the VideoGallery docs to indicate the services availible. I had been noting pages that used alternate video services, but I'm away from home for Thanksgiving so it may be a while before I'd get to accounting for them to use embeds [[User:Kolano|Kolano]] ([[User talk:Kolano|talk]]) 18:48, 22 November 2012 (CET) | |||