Project:General Discussions: Difference between revisions

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== Open Discussions ==
== Open Discussions ==
=== Titles without GameINI entries vs Rating ===
Okay, I'll get straight to the point. I don't think that problems caused due incorrect configuration (e.g. a non-default setting or a title with missing GameINI) should affect the rating of such title. Since we have established that entries under Problems section '''do affect''' the rating, my proposal is moving those entries related to issues that happen due incorrect configuration to the Emulation Information (as it's caused due bad config, not due an inaccuracy of the emulator) and leave the Problems section just for problems that will happen regardless of the settings (these are the real problems to my understanding). Given how the wiki evolved those years this feel natural to me (e.g. we already do the same with entries of enhancements that causes issues being on Enhancements instead of the Problems section) and I think it would at least alleviate the issues we have with the current rating system. Some "real-world" examples of what I'm proposing can be seen in [[Amazon Instant Video Channel]], [[Crunchyroll Channel]], [[Hulu Plus Channel]], [[YouTube Channel]] and [[Super Smash Bros. Melee]]. - [[User:Jhonn|Jhonn]] ([[User talk:Jhonn|talk]]) 01:56, 13 March 2017 (CET)
=== Problems / Global Problems Merging ===
I have an idea, we can inherit contents from Global Problems section into Problems section then add "(global problem)" after the problem name. After previewing in game page and looked back at the game page, I started to feel that Global Problems section is one section too many, this gives more appeal to this idea. How do you like this idea? [[User:Lucario|Lucario]] ([[User talk:Lucario|talk]]) 21:03, 24 November 2016 (CET)
: No. Those sections are intentionally left separated for a reason (only VC pages have it and they are shown if, and only if, there are global problems affecting all Virtual Console titles in Dolphin or all Virtual Console titles of that specific platform). Another reason is that they can't (and shouldn't) be edited here, hence the separation. - [[User:Jhonn|Jhonn]] ([[User talk:Jhonn|talk]]) 00:44, 25 November 2016 (CET)
:: I figured, but should be possible to call appropriate [[Template:GlobalProblems]]|<system> inside Problems template using the matching system type the game page is using. I can't figure how to retrieve system type from Category:<system> from game page which would've left least editable to the general editors & pure automatic if implemented correctly. If that's not possible, maybe try make use of |type= parameter... IDK. Last resort is to duplicate [[Template:Problems]] codes into [[Template:GlobalProblems]]|<system> templates under a new template name and don't let VC pages have [[Template:Problems]]. [[User:Lucario|Lucario]] ([[User talk:Lucario|talk]]) 22:52, 25 November 2016 (CET)
::: The point isn't whether it's possible or not (it certainly is), the point is that I see no reason to merge those sections nor I think they should be merged. The current separation is already clear enough (Global problems edited at a specific place which reflects on all game pages of that platform vs Problems specific to that game page) and works well enough. Doing what you're suggesting would just require extra work, would make problems editing more confusing and wouldn't provide any advantage compared to the current setup. If all you want is to take advantage of accurately problem state tracking in the categories (which is the main advantage of {{tl|Problems}} BTW) it can be ported directly to {{tl|GlobalProblems}} (and I already have plans to do so). Just don't expect both sections being merged because I won't do that, at least not until you provide me a good enough benefit that we'll have if they get merged, compared to the current setup (until now, you haven't provided any). - [[User:Jhonn|Jhonn]] ([[User talk:Jhonn|talk]]) 02:59, 26 November 2016 (CET)
:::: I thought you already knew it will benefit of not leaving the Problems section empty or writing some awkward sentence to make it not empty. I didn't think it will require more work from us once the global problems was merged into Problems template. The game list will use familiar Global Problem template while Problems template will call appropriate Global Problem template into the game page. And since you said it's bit confusing, perhaps use comment tags suggesting a way to edit the global problem? If you think this benefit isn't enough then never mind. I'm cool with what we have now. [[User:Lucario|Lucario]] ([[User talk:Lucario|talk]]) 22:37, 26 November 2016 (CET)
::::: One of the concerns raised above was in the number of page sections, the merge would reduce the page section count by 1 which might be good. Since the global problems can't be directly edited anyway, I'm not clear there's a good reason to maintain a separate heading for it. Actually it might be an advantage to get rid it, since that way there'd be a more direct path to seeing commentary on how Global problems work. [[User:Kolano|Kolano]] ([[User talk:Kolano|talk]]) 06:10, 27 November 2016 (CET)
:::::: It would reduce the page section count by one only if it is a Virtual Console page and if there are entries in the global problems template of that specific VC platform. The call to Global Problems already have a comment tag pointing to the correct place to edit that and being a separate section makes very clear it's not on the game page that those entries are located, plus it actually makes the differences between the Global and "local" Problems section very clear (global problems don't have an [edit] button at all and the entries are located somewhere else, "local" problems have the [edit] button next to the heading and all displayed entries are right there so you can edit them directly). Also, reworking the Problems template to accommodate both Global and "local" problems entries under the same section isn't as simple as it sounds (it would actually require a lot of work, especially when you start to think about things like keeping both local and global entries "sorted" properly -- active local, active global, fixed local, fixed global, -- and that it's just one point, put in the variables manipulation or the new RegExp queries that would be needed and it just becomes even worse). Besides that, if both global and local problems were on the same section, even having a comment tag there would be more confusing and inconsistent than the current setup (e.g. an editor seeing entries that aren't there popping on the page or clicking on edit just to realize an entry that is displayed on the page that they wanted to change isn't located there).
:::::: So, like I said, I still prefer to rewrite that "awkward sentence" a thousand of times until it gets acceptable on those VC pages with no "local" problems but with Global Problems than doing all that hard work just for the sake of merging both sections in a single one, especially considering that only a small subset of pages (VC titles) would be affected while it would also make the Problems section of those VC pages inconsistent with how this same section works everywhere else. The work required is simply not worth as there aren't any real benefits of doing that. By the way, if there aren't any other points besides this one, I'll probably start implementing {{tl|Problems}} on the pages sometime during this week. - [[User:Jhonn|Jhonn]] ([[User talk:Jhonn|talk]]) 06:52, 27 November 2016 (CET)
::::::: You've got really good point about sorting active and fixed problems and the global problem entries will always be in top before the local problem entries. Might be overcome with calling global problems template twice and regex to filter out "active" then "fixed" using same template call at different time with slightly different regex codes into top and bottom beyond list of local issues. This will probably require a full duplication of itself with slightly different regex with regex mainly for renaming global problem headings with "(global problem)" added in. I see that you're making a big deal out of the edit button used to distinguish things and how the global problem entries being merged into the Problems template are going to confuse the editors. The global problems, after merged into the same section as other local problems, can still be identified by looking for "(global problem)" in the heading of the issue, and the comment tags will point editors to the location where global problem entries can be edited at, if they plan to edit them. How is this any more confused?
::::::: I don't know well with regex, so I may be wrong with how feasible it's gonna be to handle global problem entries into top and bottom and edit each heading with "(global problem)" added in. [[User:Lucario|Lucario]] ([[User talk:Lucario|talk]]) 05:52, 28 November 2016 (CET)
:::::::: Saw two more benefits for that, but I could be dumbass thinking these will work: adds [[:Category:Pages with missing VC system]] using $ifpageincat: (is this it?) against [[:Category:Virtual Console games]] (to skip the job on the non-VC game pages) then #if: on top of #ifpageincat: against VC & call matching global problem template, if returns nothing... assuming I'm correct... then a page doesn't have a VC system mentioned. 2nd benefit is the opportunity to label slashed and whatnot global problems with appropriate active/fixed categories along with "(global problem)" during regex search n replace. [[User:Lucario|Lucario]] ([[User talk:Lucario|talk]]) 20:42, 28 November 2016 (CET)
::::::::: Okay, before continuing, let's clear some points:
::::::::: * '''Calling {{tl|GlobalProblems}} inside {{tl|Problems}} and doing RegExp on their entries:''' I might have overlooked but that seems exactly what you did in the recent changes to {{tl|Problems}} (which I reverted by the way, use a template sandbox or something similar for that). It's useless, just adds processing overhead server-side and won't provide any benefit because Global Problems will never show different content on a page other than what's on their variables, so doing the query directly in {{tl|GlobalProblems}} (which as I said it's on my schedule) it's way faster since it's only 10 "Global Problems" pages compared to doing the query on all VC titles pages, while providing exactly the same result.
::::::::: * '''[[:Category:Pages with missing VC system]]:''' I'm neutral on this one, it *might* be of some use but I'm not sure either since as far as I could check all VC titles pages we currently have already are correctly categorized (and since it's only a small subset of pages, it isn't hard to keep them properly categorized), not to mention #ifpageincat is also an expensive parser function, I would avoid using it.
::::::::: Now, back to the main subject, I messed around in a page with your suggested "(global problem)" postfix on the headings of Global Problems and I found the result fugly. You also brought me another point: since the best way (at least performance-wise) of querying the entries in Global Problems and properly categorising the page accordingly would be directly in the base template rather than calling {{tl|GlobalProblems}} or its variables inside {{tl|Problems}}, that's actually another reason to keep the sections separated: {{tl|Problems}} would need yet another complex filtering to avoid appling the RegExp queries twice on the global problems, while not affecting entries of local problems. TL;DR you still hadn't convinced me, my vote for merging both Global Problems and Problems into a single section still is a big no (especially now with the proposed postfixes on headings) and my thoughts remain the same: merging both sections is way harder than it seems and there's no real benefits to justify the huge amount of work that would be required to properly achieve that. In fact, it looks like you're trying to "fix" something which is not broken. If I were you I would concentrate my ideas on a better message for the empty Problems section when the page have active Global Problems instead, which seems to be main reason you came up with that proposal as far as I can tell. - [[User:Jhonn|Jhonn]] ([[User talk:Jhonn|talk]]) 03:06, 29 November 2016 (CET)
:::::::::: As I feared, it seems the template overheads for global problem may not be good for performance on server side as majority of game pages aren't even VC. What about the other way around: global problem template to call problems template instead (in new template name like [[Template:ProblemsVC]]) so the overheads will not be there in non-VC game pages? Well, let's put this on hold, we should discuss on how the page should actually look, since you dislike having postfix "(global problem)" in problem entry headings, then let's worry about the complexity of template overheads later (I also realized, we can just forget about [[:Category:Pages with missing VC system]] and other template overhead redundancies because there aren't as many VC pages & only 10 global problem templates), and worry on silly template name the least. I still want to merge the global problems into problems section to reduce number of sections and get rid of "awkward sentence". I also am on the same side as yours on silly heading postfixes though I still think it's better than global problems + problems section with awkward sentence personally. We'll need more opinion on this...
:::::::::: I'm fine with Problem template going official now. [[User:Lucario|Lucario]] ([[User talk:Lucario|talk]]) 23:16, 29 November 2016 (CET)
== Recent Discussions ==
Below is listed of recently concluded discussions. You can [[Project:General_Discussions/Archive|search the archive]] for what was discussed since General Discussions page was created.
=== Gameplay Screenshots section worth staying? ===
=== Gameplay Screenshots section worth staying? ===
I think it'd be more appropriate to take them to HD screenshot thread in Dolphin forum. By getting rid of it from here, it'd be easier to distinguish between them and the emulation bug images here, because they wouldn't be anywhere here in the first place, and there are only few screenshots so it'd be much less of a loss compared to trying to get rid of gameplay videos. There seems not much going for HD gameplay screenshots here. There are lot of "Gameplay Screenshots" sections with nothing under that bothered me. I don't think anyone will care if it's gone along with those that contain screenshots. Do you agree? [[User:Lucario|Lucario]] ([[User talk:Lucario|talk]]) 23:59, 25 February 2017 (CET)
I think it'd be more appropriate to take them to HD screenshot thread in Dolphin forum. By getting rid of it from here, it'd be easier to distinguish between them and the emulation bug images here, because they wouldn't be anywhere here in the first place, and there are only few screenshots so it'd be much less of a loss compared to trying to get rid of gameplay videos. There seems not much going for HD gameplay screenshots here. There are lot of "Gameplay Screenshots" sections with nothing under that bothered me. I don't think anyone will care if it's gone along with those that contain screenshots. Do you agree? [[User:Lucario|Lucario]] ([[User talk:Lucario|talk]]) 23:59, 25 February 2017 (CET)
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:::::: I see. The sentence that points to Dolphin's issue tracker was actually just filler to make the section don't look empty. :P I'm not comfortable with it saying something like "excluding Global Problems above". [[User:Lucario|Lucario]] ([[User talk:Lucario|talk]]) 22:52, 25 November 2016 (CET)
:::::: I see. The sentence that points to Dolphin's issue tracker was actually just filler to make the section don't look empty. :P I'm not comfortable with it saying something like "excluding Global Problems above". [[User:Lucario|Lucario]] ([[User talk:Lucario|talk]]) 22:52, 25 November 2016 (CET)
:::::: Just noticed the unused parameter "Wikipedia". This has been overlooked when I was copy/pasting from [[Template:Infobox VG]]. I thought I'd like to point that out. Also, would it be better if we renamed the category "Active Problems" to "Ongoing Problems"? [[User:Lucario|Lucario]] ([[User talk:Lucario|talk]]) 00:09, 2 December 2016 (CET)
:::::: Just noticed the unused parameter "Wikipedia". This has been overlooked when I was copy/pasting from [[Template:Infobox VG]]. I thought I'd like to point that out. Also, would it be better if we renamed the category "Active Problems" to "Ongoing Problems"? [[User:Lucario|Lucario]] ([[User talk:Lucario|talk]]) 00:09, 2 December 2016 (CET)
=== Problems / Global Problems Merging ===
I have an idea, we can inherit contents from Global Problems section into Problems section then add "(global problem)" after the problem name. After previewing in game page and looked back at the game page, I started to feel that Global Problems section is one section too many, this gives more appeal to this idea. How do you like this idea? [[User:Lucario|Lucario]] ([[User talk:Lucario|talk]]) 21:03, 24 November 2016 (CET)
: No. Those sections are intentionally left separated for a reason (only VC pages have it and they are shown if, and only if, there are global problems affecting all Virtual Console titles in Dolphin or all Virtual Console titles of that specific platform). Another reason is that they can't (and shouldn't) be edited here, hence the separation. - [[User:Jhonn|Jhonn]] ([[User talk:Jhonn|talk]]) 00:44, 25 November 2016 (CET)
:: I figured, but should be possible to call appropriate [[Template:GlobalProblems]]|<system> inside Problems template using the matching system type the game page is using. I can't figure how to retrieve system type from Category:<system> from game page which would've left least editable to the general editors & pure automatic if implemented correctly. If that's not possible, maybe try make use of |type= parameter... IDK. Last resort is to duplicate [[Template:Problems]] codes into [[Template:GlobalProblems]]|<system> templates under a new template name and don't let VC pages have [[Template:Problems]]. [[User:Lucario|Lucario]] ([[User talk:Lucario|talk]]) 22:52, 25 November 2016 (CET)
::: The point isn't whether it's possible or not (it certainly is), the point is that I see no reason to merge those sections nor I think they should be merged. The current separation is already clear enough (Global problems edited at a specific place which reflects on all game pages of that platform vs Problems specific to that game page) and works well enough. Doing what you're suggesting would just require extra work, would make problems editing more confusing and wouldn't provide any advantage compared to the current setup. If all you want is to take advantage of accurately problem state tracking in the categories (which is the main advantage of {{tl|Problems}} BTW) it can be ported directly to {{tl|GlobalProblems}} (and I already have plans to do so). Just don't expect both sections being merged because I won't do that, at least not until you provide me a good enough benefit that we'll have if they get merged, compared to the current setup (until now, you haven't provided any). - [[User:Jhonn|Jhonn]] ([[User talk:Jhonn|talk]]) 02:59, 26 November 2016 (CET)
:::: I thought you already knew it will benefit of not leaving the Problems section empty or writing some awkward sentence to make it not empty. I didn't think it will require more work from us once the global problems was merged into Problems template. The game list will use familiar Global Problem template while Problems template will call appropriate Global Problem template into the game page. And since you said it's bit confusing, perhaps use comment tags suggesting a way to edit the global problem? If you think this benefit isn't enough then never mind. I'm cool with what we have now. [[User:Lucario|Lucario]] ([[User talk:Lucario|talk]]) 22:37, 26 November 2016 (CET)
::::: One of the concerns raised above was in the number of page sections, the merge would reduce the page section count by 1 which might be good. Since the global problems can't be directly edited anyway, I'm not clear there's a good reason to maintain a separate heading for it. Actually it might be an advantage to get rid it, since that way there'd be a more direct path to seeing commentary on how Global problems work. [[User:Kolano|Kolano]] ([[User talk:Kolano|talk]]) 06:10, 27 November 2016 (CET)
:::::: It would reduce the page section count by one only if it is a Virtual Console page and if there are entries in the global problems template of that specific VC platform. The call to Global Problems already have a comment tag pointing to the correct place to edit that and being a separate section makes very clear it's not on the game page that those entries are located, plus it actually makes the differences between the Global and "local" Problems section very clear (global problems don't have an [edit] button at all and the entries are located somewhere else, "local" problems have the [edit] button next to the heading and all displayed entries are right there so you can edit them directly). Also, reworking the Problems template to accommodate both Global and "local" problems entries under the same section isn't as simple as it sounds (it would actually require a lot of work, especially when you start to think about things like keeping both local and global entries "sorted" properly -- active local, active global, fixed local, fixed global, -- and that it's just one point, put in the variables manipulation or the new RegExp queries that would be needed and it just becomes even worse). Besides that, if both global and local problems were on the same section, even having a comment tag there would be more confusing and inconsistent than the current setup (e.g. an editor seeing entries that aren't there popping on the page or clicking on edit just to realize an entry that is displayed on the page that they wanted to change isn't located there).
:::::: So, like I said, I still prefer to rewrite that "awkward sentence" a thousand of times until it gets acceptable on those VC pages with no "local" problems but with Global Problems than doing all that hard work just for the sake of merging both sections in a single one, especially considering that only a small subset of pages (VC titles) would be affected while it would also make the Problems section of those VC pages inconsistent with how this same section works everywhere else. The work required is simply not worth as there aren't any real benefits of doing that. By the way, if there aren't any other points besides this one, I'll probably start implementing {{tl|Problems}} on the pages sometime during this week. - [[User:Jhonn|Jhonn]] ([[User talk:Jhonn|talk]]) 06:52, 27 November 2016 (CET)
::::::: You've got really good point about sorting active and fixed problems and the global problem entries will always be in top before the local problem entries. Might be overcome with calling global problems template twice and regex to filter out "active" then "fixed" using same template call at different time with slightly different regex codes into top and bottom beyond list of local issues. This will probably require a full duplication of itself with slightly different regex with regex mainly for renaming global problem headings with "(global problem)" added in. I see that you're making a big deal out of the edit button used to distinguish things and how the global problem entries being merged into the Problems template are going to confuse the editors. The global problems, after merged into the same section as other local problems, can still be identified by looking for "(global problem)" in the heading of the issue, and the comment tags will point editors to the location where global problem entries can be edited at, if they plan to edit them. How is this any more confused?
::::::: I don't know well with regex, so I may be wrong with how feasible it's gonna be to handle global problem entries into top and bottom and edit each heading with "(global problem)" added in. [[User:Lucario|Lucario]] ([[User talk:Lucario|talk]]) 05:52, 28 November 2016 (CET)
:::::::: Saw two more benefits for that, but I could be dumbass thinking these will work: adds [[:Category:Pages with missing VC system]] using $ifpageincat: (is this it?) against [[:Category:Virtual Console games]] (to skip the job on the non-VC game pages) then #if: on top of #ifpageincat: against VC & call matching global problem template, if returns nothing... assuming I'm correct... then a page doesn't have a VC system mentioned. 2nd benefit is the opportunity to label slashed and whatnot global problems with appropriate active/fixed categories along with "(global problem)" during regex search n replace. [[User:Lucario|Lucario]] ([[User talk:Lucario|talk]]) 20:42, 28 November 2016 (CET)
::::::::: Okay, before continuing, let's clear some points:
::::::::: * '''Calling {{tl|GlobalProblems}} inside {{tl|Problems}} and doing RegExp on their entries:''' I might have overlooked but that seems exactly what you did in the recent changes to {{tl|Problems}} (which I reverted by the way, use a template sandbox or something similar for that). It's useless, just adds processing overhead server-side and won't provide any benefit because Global Problems will never show different content on a page other than what's on their variables, so doing the query directly in {{tl|GlobalProblems}} (which as I said it's on my schedule) it's way faster since it's only 10 "Global Problems" pages compared to doing the query on all VC titles pages, while providing exactly the same result.
::::::::: * '''[[:Category:Pages with missing VC system]]:''' I'm neutral on this one, it *might* be of some use but I'm not sure either since as far as I could check all VC titles pages we currently have already are correctly categorized (and since it's only a small subset of pages, it isn't hard to keep them properly categorized), not to mention #ifpageincat is also an expensive parser function, I would avoid using it.
::::::::: Now, back to the main subject, I messed around in a page with your suggested "(global problem)" postfix on the headings of Global Problems and I found the result fugly. You also brought me another point: since the best way (at least performance-wise) of querying the entries in Global Problems and properly categorising the page accordingly would be directly in the base template rather than calling {{tl|GlobalProblems}} or its variables inside {{tl|Problems}}, that's actually another reason to keep the sections separated: {{tl|Problems}} would need yet another complex filtering to avoid appling the RegExp queries twice on the global problems, while not affecting entries of local problems. TL;DR you still hadn't convinced me, my vote for merging both Global Problems and Problems into a single section still is a big no (especially now with the proposed postfixes on headings) and my thoughts remain the same: merging both sections is way harder than it seems and there's no real benefits to justify the huge amount of work that would be required to properly achieve that. In fact, it looks like you're trying to "fix" something which is not broken. If I were you I would concentrate my ideas on a better message for the empty Problems section when the page have active Global Problems instead, which seems to be main reason you came up with that proposal as far as I can tell. - [[User:Jhonn|Jhonn]] ([[User talk:Jhonn|talk]]) 03:06, 29 November 2016 (CET)
:::::::::: As I feared, it seems the template overheads for global problem may not be good for performance on server side as majority of game pages aren't even VC. What about the other way around: global problem template to call problems template instead (in new template name like [[Template:ProblemsVC]]) so the overheads will not be there in non-VC game pages? Well, let's put this on hold, we should discuss on how the page should actually look, since you dislike having postfix "(global problem)" in problem entry headings, then let's worry about the complexity of template overheads later (I also realized, we can just forget about [[:Category:Pages with missing VC system]] and other template overhead redundancies because there aren't as many VC pages & only 10 global problem templates), and worry on silly template name the least. I still want to merge the global problems into problems section to reduce number of sections and get rid of "awkward sentence". I also am on the same side as yours on silly heading postfixes though I still think it's better than global problems + problems section with awkward sentence personally. We'll need more opinion on this...
:::::::::: I'm fine with Problem template going official now. [[User:Lucario|Lucario]] ([[User talk:Lucario|talk]]) 23:16, 29 November 2016 (CET)


=== Category Intersection Search ===
=== Category Intersection Search ===
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:: thank you for the fast reply. i noticed it the next day, but decided i'd see what happens next, as i wasn't sure how simple dynamicpagelist3 would be. but, i tried it today and it's relatively straightforward, but only after having spent 40 minutes with it - i'm not the first person to say the manual is a bit confusing, as it seems it is a very complex extension, with a tonne of options. i added a few much [http://help.gamepedia.com/DPL:Example_-_Select_by_Category simpler examples] to the manual, based on what i wanted to do. but i think other users with the same problem might appreciate the more specific GUI [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Multi-Category_Search multi-category search] extension on the mediawiki, if they are not as comfortable with wikicode, or if they don't find this 'general discussions' page. provided it doesn't cost much overhead, of course.
:: thank you for the fast reply. i noticed it the next day, but decided i'd see what happens next, as i wasn't sure how simple dynamicpagelist3 would be. but, i tried it today and it's relatively straightforward, but only after having spent 40 minutes with it - i'm not the first person to say the manual is a bit confusing, as it seems it is a very complex extension, with a tonne of options. i added a few much [http://help.gamepedia.com/DPL:Example_-_Select_by_Category simpler examples] to the manual, based on what i wanted to do. but i think other users with the same problem might appreciate the more specific GUI [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Multi-Category_Search multi-category search] extension on the mediawiki, if they are not as comfortable with wikicode, or if they don't find this 'general discussions' page. provided it doesn't cost much overhead, of course.
:: [[User:Drmario|Drmario]] ([[User talk:Drmario|talk]]) 14:30, 17 September 2016 (CEST)
:: [[User:Drmario|Drmario]] ([[User talk:Drmario|talk]]) 14:30, 17 September 2016 (CEST)
== Recent Discussions ==
Below is listed of recently concluded discussions. You can [[Project:General_Discussions/Archive|search the archive]] for what was discussed since General Discussions page was created.


=== 5.0 announcement ===
=== 5.0 announcement ===
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